Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Reimagining Redesigning podcast with Antoinette D Curl. Today we have Jacob Smith with us. And Jacob, I have known now for many, many years have seen his progression of centering young leaders through organizing for mobility. We also worked with each other through the lens of what does it look like navigating philanthropy and the systems of power in that space and systems of white supremacy. How do we not fall into the mission creep trap? So today's conversation is going to be a combination of looking at what does mobility justice look like? To a conversation of what does it look like navigating these different systems of the world and the power structures that be. And so with that, I want to open the floor to Jacob. Welcome, Jacob.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Thank you so much. So glad to be here.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: I always tell people, yes, I could read your bio, but I've been in a space where people have read my bio and I'm like, oh, that's not right, or oh, that is not the part I wanted you to highlight. And so I want you, from your words, to tell us about yourself and what systems are you working to reimagine and redesign.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So excited to be here. So, as you mentioned, I'm Jacob Smith. I am a black queer community organizer, mobility justice advocate. I put that at the forefront because it really is personal to me to be able to hold my identities close when I do this work and represent my community. What I'm really trying to work on in my personal life and my professional life is really tackling mobility justice and how young people move and breathe and navigate their world through mobility and through public spaces. And how do we envision public spaces that are vibrant and inclusive? And I think that's at the root of mobility justice, moving beyond cars, but actually looking at people's identities and what their bodies hold and how that really shapes how we build spaces for young people.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: I love that. So for the folks that are listening, some people maybe never even think about the right of mobility. Right? Like as you stated, it's beyond cars. Yes, cars is an element of it. It could be also looking at public transportation access, but it also could be mobility of our own bodies and literally looking at the spectrum of that. And so for the folks that are new to understanding mobility, understanding mobility justice, can you define what mobility justice is and how do you use that to promote equity within communities?
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So mobility justice, I'm very simple with my mobility justice. I don't have big words that people try to put in perfect. They're important. But I look at mobility justice as looking at the historical aspects of injustices that prohibit people from moving and breathing and living the way that they want to live.
We have to take a historical context of mobility, of justice, and recognize that people have been prohibited from actually being and living the way that they want to live based off of their bodies and their identities. And so Mobility Justice recognizes that people have the right to move. People have the right to breathe and live and navigate spaces based off of who they are, not based off of history, of oppression. Something that is very close to me is disability justice. And how does disability justice play into mobility work? And so much of our world is curated to where folks who are disabled or identified being disabled don't have the ability to move around as much as they'd like, don't have the agency. People don't allow them to have that agency to move as they'd like to move. And so Mobility's Justice really takes a look at the history first and looks at the identities that people hold.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: What I love about this is that it is something that we need to be more conscious of because it affects all of us. And a lot of us, I would argue, that are in, more privileged, able bodied, or maybe have flexible transportation. We are in many cases taking advantage of it. As you were speaking, it made me think about my grandmother. Like anyone that knows me, knows me, know that I talk about my grandmother as the example of a woman that I want to be. She's powerful. Everyone in the family says she raised us, she raised us all. Even with my kids, people are like, well, you travel a lot. Look, my grandma partly raised my children, and I'm proud of it, right?
And I was one of the only ones in my family that actually lived with my grandmother physically. Like, my mother had all my other siblings, but I lived with my grandparents. And as years was going on, she started to have different issues around arthritis. And I didn't really understand the impact on it except two times. One when she had to have knee surgery and her job of almost 30 years fired her afterwards because she was a housekeeper. And it made me think about kind of like the disparities in equities there and the economic impacts of it. It also kind of came to the forefront. Now, when I say now, as of probably five years ago, my grandmother, she's immobile. She literally cannot move anymore. And it kind of deteriorated over time. And so I remember talking about the privilege of being one of the only people to have flexible physical transportation in my family. But then now we also have to look at this reality that our grandmother, our matriarch, our woman that literally all of us strive to be is immobile. And the world doesn't think about the fact that, one, it could happen to any of us. But also we are not designing communities and systems to work with folks that don't have either transportation or don't have the ability and the right and the privilege to freely move in their own bodies.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Wow. So powerful and true.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I'm curious when you think of the folks that you've worked with, and this could be from your own experience, this could be from some of the communities that you and the young leaders that you partner with have actually engaged with. What are some of those misconceptions that people have around community members as it relates to movement? And honestly, I would even argue whether, again, transportation or disability, that we need to be very mindful of if we're trying to be advocates in the mobility justice space.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So I start with the young people, because, Antoinette, we both agree, young people.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: They are architects of change. If you look at what's changed, young people have been behind it. Yes.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: Period. Looking at young people in regards to mobility justice is a powerful aspect of our work. And there's two I separate this because we have the folks who look at safety. They look at transportation safety. They don't look at identities, they don't look at bodies, they don't look at anything but safety. But there is a very different aspect of safety, transportation, safety, and mobility justice, because someone can be safe with a mode of transportation and be unsafe as an identity.
When we talk about young people, teen driving is changing. Young people are not wanting to drive anymore unless they're being required in their communities. They're recognizing that, hey, these cars are jeopardizing our climate. They're recognizing that I want to walk and bike more. I want to breathe and live. There's a huge push for people to recognize that mobility, equity and mobility justice needs to be at the forefront of how we address safety. We cannot continue to have this same narrative of make sure teen driving crashes are decreasing and make sure young people are safe on the road. We can't continue this victim blaming period. We have to look at the root cause of why folks are dying and why folks don't feel safe in these communities. And look at their identities first and look at the historical inequities the highways that are dividing our communities and really grapple with that. And look at what does it take to address the root of mobility? Justice. So I tell people all the time, we can envision a world that is so much more beautiful than it is now, but instead we focus on the modes of transportation so much more than the actual lived experiences and identities that make up how people are safe.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: That is so powerful. You're even making me think differently in this conversation because admittedly, when I thought about mobility justice, there were two ways to take it, and I wasn't sure which one right. But what I love about what you're saying is that this is intersectional. Yes. It's not saying, let's not talk about safety on the roads because one, whether they're biking or walking, the roads are going to affect them let's talk about it. Right, that's important. But also, what does it look like to be safe in your identity? It makes me think about some years ago, if anyone has ever driven to Des Moines, Iowa, let me tell y'all something painful drive my husband and I have ever done. We still drive it. But we talk about how you just never know if your next corner gonna be a steep drop. Like you don't know. But I remember GPS took us through a community where the roads were like you could barely see them. There weren't any lights up. It was more rural, which there's nothing wrong with rural community. It was just at that time, there was no lights. It was extremely dark. The roads are winding. Our GPS started acting up and literally, we started talking about how we couldn't find a gas station. And we started feeling this inherent fear of our identity when it comes to if our car stopped in Community right now, that's different biases and stereotypes that we have to, of course, work through ourselves on. Why do we automatically think this? And we look at the Green Book and even what's coming up now where different communities and organizations say, hey, this neighborhood, this state may not be safe for black people.
We had to think about all of that. So we had to think about the physical of the transportation, of driving and getting someplace, not having the map. But then we also had to think about the mental, spiritual and physical of our bodies on if we are stopped in this field right now, what are we going to do? Because there's too many unfortunate realities of what happens to black people and communities that's not theirs.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I have a really good friend, Charles brown, that does some conversations around that around arrested mobility and looking at black and brown folks and how our society has been created to actually create these barriers for black and brown folks and essentially arresting us in terms of our mobility, keeping us bound from being able to explore and create experiences for ourselves. And that comes with enforcement, that comes with the way, like you mentioned, with communities and feeling a sense of fear and Inferness. So it's something that's extremely powerful in terms of looking at how we move around and what our identity shape with that.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: I think I even heard you speak about a little bit of challenge of perception and language when it comes to doing this work. Some folks, when they hear mobility justice, they're only thinking about safety when it comes to the road. Right. So what are some of the other challenges that you've had to navigate to really get us to the space of equity and mobility justice, especially if we think about limited resources or political influences? What are some of the challenges you maybe have had to overcome in doing this work?
[00:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the biggest one is individualism that has a huge role. When we look at mobility justice and transportation safety, there's been decades of saying that everything is your fault. Everything is just you. It is solely you. You're the problem. If you don't change, then nothing will change. And with this work, I really take it from a community perspective and a community, because, for example, I can tell someone every day, hey, don't jaywalk, don't jaywalk, don't jaywalk, which has a racist history within itself. The term jaywalking does extremely racist history. And so I can tell someone all day to don't jaywalk. But if they live in a community where there's not even sidewalks, where there's not lighting, where there's not infrastructure built, infrastructure in place to keep someone safe and feel protected from other things that may be larger or bigger than them, then I'm doing them a disservice by not allowing them to look at the root issue here. And so that's just one example of how I find it so challenging, especially with young people.
They were born into this system of transportation inequities. So they should be at the forefront, but we should really look at them as architects of change who can reimagine how our cities are built. Let's not keep with the same old process of how our communities are created in terms of transportation. And so I would say that's probably the hardest is because you can't talk about individualism and continue to talk about mobility justice. You can't have a mobility justice future without centering a community's lived experience. And I take that very strongly.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: You talked a lot about the importance of young leaders in the work that you do. What are some of the strategies that you've used to employ amplify center young leaders when it comes to doing work around mobility justice in itself?
[00:14:07] Speaker B: So I think a big one that I actually just went up on is we have a national youth transportation equity fellowship that really allows young people to go out into their community and design projects and work to design projects that address transportation and equities in their community. And what I love about it is because we start with a clean slate. We start with the extremely clean slate, which I learned it from folks like creative Reaction Lab and really allow them to address their own lived experience. And on Monday, I had someone who focuses on housing and security, like, deeply is a housing and security advocate for youth and came to us and said, hey, my community on the north side. We have sidewalks. We have bike lanes. I can go across a railroad track and not have my car feel bumpy. Everything just feels so great. And I can walk, bike, move. I feel so great. But it also feels hostile. But then when I go to my side of the community, the south side, it feels extremely like nothing is fixed, like nothing feels safe. I can't get to where I need to go to from school. I feel like I'm harmed if a car hits me on my way to school. That was the start of the conversation. And then we did some research and figured out that they have a highway segregating the community that's been there for decades.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: And so it was just something where this type of work is very hard because young people, when you first go into school, the first thing you hear, don't text and drive.
Buckle up your seatbelt. Great topics. I'm not saying that they're not important, but there is something much deeper that is shaping the trajectory of transportation, safety and mobility, justice that young people are seeing. We just tend to not give them the agency and the resources for them to actually take action.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: I love this example that you gave of kind of like this young leader really seeing this greater disparity and honestly having to grapple with the history that they probably wasn't aware of because there's been an intentionality of erasing our history. And when I say our, I'm talking just the human race. I'm not even talking about different racial identities, which we can go, or different gender identity. Just history of humanity has always been slanted towards whoever's writing the story. Right. So there's been so much that we didn't learn. A lot of us didn't learn about redlining, a lot of us Levitt Town, we didn't learn about any of that. Right. And so I'm pretty sure for this young leader, this was a learning moment of they did what now?
Which is something I had to grab with my own family because a neighborhood my community grew up in, one of them was called Robinson, and it was completely displaced. Literally. The community members that was there was bought up by McDonald Douglas, now known as Boeing, because Boeing acquired them. And I grew up going to the Robinson Picnic, which I saw as a family reunion, but I didn't know that that was a representation of a neighborhood that was completely displaced, removed for corporation. Right.
And a lot of black people that was in their neighborhood, including my grandmother, ended up with cancer because of different waste and everything that was put into that space. Right. Again, histories that we are not taught. And I can see from what I'm hearing that this fellowship is not only giving them the space to come up with their own projects, but also giving them the space to build their own consciousness that will actually be beneficial in the long run for any work that they're trying to do within their communities. Would you agree with that?
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I can even say for myself. I got into this work from a terrible car crash that left me in a coma for three months. And I came out like, yes, everybody needs to drive safe. Which, yes, everyone does need to drive safe. But then when I started to grapple with the fact that I have a traumatic brain injury. I'm not able to drive. I'm a queer individual. I'm disabled. And the mode of transportation that I have is walking or biking or not even biking. I have limited transportation options, and there are systems of oppression that are harming me every day. And so it took me an opening of my consciousness to recognize that way, this is so much greater than someone just being safe on the road. This is much bigger, and I have a much bigger role to play in this. And so it's amazing to see young people really open up and have the opportunity to learn the history of this work, and we're all still learning. I am definitely still learning. Every day I learn about something, and I'm like, wow, transportation had a role in that.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: I want to ask you because you brought up a lot of different identities, which I love, right? You're black, queer, disabled, right? You could speak around many of the identities that are really important to you. And when you think about the work you're doing in mobility justice, the transportation sector with disability justice, like, all of that work, it's made up of people that are on multiple sides and in the spectrum of the work, right. One of the biggest conversation points that we see in almost every industry is the lack of representation of folks that are usually black, brown, or disabled. Right. And so I'm curious, when you think of just the mobility industry, the transportation industry, what would it look like if your sector actually reflected your different cultures? What would be different about your sector if it reflected your different cultures?
[00:19:56] Speaker B: I believe that what we experience on a daily basis would be completely different in terms of how we move.
There is so much power that is being held systemically in terms of our access to mobility that communities don't even recognize that there could be something greater and something better for each of us. First of all, I wouldn't even be in my position right now. I think that I would be probably traveling the world, traveling, feeling liberated in so many other ways than I feel right now, which is very bound to a locality. Like I mentioned at the beginning, I put it in two different areas of there's a transportation safety sector and an injury prevention, getting people to stay safe, period, which is great, but that has extreme lack of representation. There's folks who look at safety, and that's it. But I would say that the field of urban planning and the field of black queer feminism planning is growing dramatically, and people are recognizing that, hey, I can have a role in shaping the way my city is built by focusing on my identity. And that's what I love, that there's this growing number of people who are like, yes, this is for me. I need to shape the way my community is built. And I love that. So I'm not going to negate and say that we don't have work to do, but we got some good things.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Happening for sure, and I want to hear more about the good things happening. Right. Because sometimes we only focus on the oppressive systems and if we only focus on the oppressive systems, literally, it will continue to drain us, right. They think about the emotional labor and what does it look like to reimagine and redesign through the lens of joy and liberation. But before we go into kind of that deeper imagination space, I love how in your last answer you talked about you feeling the need to be liberated and being able to travel across the globe. You were like, look, if it reflected, I wouldn't even be here, right?
I feel bound I would be liberated through the lens of travel and cultural exploration, et cetera.
And so I'm going to bring in what I call the liberation pause at this point, right. We talk about the heavy work, but I always want to provide space for joy and for honestly, sometimes these are just resources for people to hear like, hey, I never thought about dance as a form of liberation or I never heard of this song, let me listen to it. Right? And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you a variety of categories and I am going to ask you to just come up with what's the first 2nd thing that come to mind for you when I name this as it relates to liberation for you. Right. So with that, I'm going to start with a category of film. When you think of a film or a movie, what brings you joy? What centers liberation for you?
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Moonlight.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Moonlight.
Such good film. That's good. Moonlight was a beautifully shot film. Such a strong story. Just wonderful. That's a good one. How about color?
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Definitely maroon.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Oh, you got to give me a little bit more on that because maroon is a sexy color.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: It's just a bold but powerful and confidence. I feel very confident when I'm around maroon, but it also gives like it has a little secret. And the secret is still a know shy and careful with who you connect with. Careful with the energy. I will say that. Careful with the energy.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Careful with the energy. Look, you all listen, we all need to find ways to be careful with our energies on what we are giving and what we are receiving, right?
What about plant?
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Not too much into plants, but a lily is where I'm headed.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Okay? I am a tree girl. I love trees. I hug trees when people start telling me I had the privilege of being in Vancouver and having indigenous tribe leaders giving us a tour of a community and a space. And they were talking historically about this tree that was rooted, that had been a part of their history and I just wanted to live with the tree. I can't give you specific names of plants, but give me a tree and I literally buy books of just amazing.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: That's amazing.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: What about season?
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Spring. And I love me some Colorado people have a misconception about Colorado. And they say that, oh, it's the winter. It's the winter all the time, but it's majority spring, actually. It actually Denver is majority spring.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: I remember going to Denver once and was like, who was hot here? People are like, you think a couple of more. What about animal?
[00:25:02] Speaker B: I will go with my miniature schnauzer that I passed away. But my miniature snouser like, chase forever.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Chase and rest in peace.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: This next one I'm going to give you because I think you fell into it so lovely. So like you said, you wouldn't be boundless, you would travel the world. What geographic location would bring you liberation?
[00:25:29] Speaker B: I'm going to say something about that. That question makes me think I need to be rooted somewhere. And I don't know where my identity feels rooted yet.
And so I want to explore, I would say everywhere I can. That makes me feel safe, but that makes me feel comfortable and safe and feel like I can explore, but I don't know if I feel rooted anywhere. And that's something to unpack one day.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: And I love when you said yet.
What I think we forget about liberation is that it's ever evolving, constantly changing. Something that maybe could have been liberatory for me five years ago may be completely different now. And as someone that likes to call herself a nomad herself, like, I'm technically I live in St. Louis, but as much as I travel at this point, I am a nomad.
To me, sometimes even the act of travel is liberating.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Last one is your own category. Anything that comes up for you? What's liberatory?
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Wearing heels.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Okay, tell me more.
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Because I'm a heel girl wearing heels. I love a good pump. It's recently become something that's extremely liberatory for me and brings a lot of joy.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: We should go heel shopping together.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: We should. Yes.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: I love that. Well, thank you.
Okay, so that gave us a good cleanse. So let's jump in a bit. Moving from theory to action and equity, right? For some folks, this is still a utopian mindset. We talk about equity and mission statements. They're in organization values, especially after 2020. George Floyd being murdered. Everyone wanted to throw it in, didn't even understand the definition of equity. Right?
And so many people, when they understand equity, they do think about it in a very theoretical way, but they struggle to take it to action. And we know action is different in each scenario, right. Tangibility is different in every community and for every individual, every context. Right. What does equity in action look like, in your opinion, in your sectors?
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Equity and action is first centering young people that have the live experience and the expertise and shifting away from the current power dynamics that we have around mobility, justice, and transportation safety. Equity is allowing there to be spaces where people have the option to move based off of their own identity. So, for example, having open streets, just having open streets where folks could have parties, can play, can be who they are in a neighborhood, it looks like black children. I say that because I grew up in a neighborhood where every time a black child would be dancing and playing in the park, someone would say something, but then another race, another race would have the ability to do whatever they want to do in their community. And so just having that joy in mobility, justice is a part of equity because so much of our spaces are just bound by you need to be this and you need to do that. And there's a term that we use as quick build projects in our work and really looks at, okay, what is the issue that this community is facing in regards to transportation and their built environment? And how can we work with them? And how can we allow them to be at the center of creating their own space for the next two years and building out that entire space, putting funding into this space, whether that's painting, building a rainbow colored intersection and cutting it off, or whether that's saying that, hey, young people ride scooters in this area a ton. So how do we need to make sure that scooters are accessible in this community and then from there, we already have it built by community members and we put that funding in and so let's make that permanent if that's what it needs to be. And then that funding comes from a different power. So I think those are what equity looks like. But so much of the conversation is having to remove so much of what's happened before, like having to look at the highways. That's just one topic of reconnecting communities and removing these highways that have built pollution and created so much segregation. And so equity really looks like, let's fix what we messed up messed up first. Let's look at the folks and fix what we messed up first. Based off of the thoughts and the visions of our communities that we need to support.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: I love that. What would you say is like one or two of different projects or initiatives that you've worked on? Are you like, we need to see more of this. I want to highlight it a bit in the space and it could be highlighting through the lens of I'm very proud of this. It could be highlighting in the lens of vulnerability. Like, look, we tried this and who, let's not do that again.
And it was a learning opportunity for us. So kind of what's coming up for you? Let's share a little bit of. That with the listeners.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: So I think some of the good is decriminalizing fair evasion around transit access. First of all, I'm all for free public transportation regardless. I think that is something that should be public. It's public transportation, so let's make it that way.
But we worked in DC for many years to decriminalize fairy evasion, like just looking at young people getting ticketed and being criminalized for the fact that they can't afford a ticket. And that was a part of our equity work, and recognizing that not everyone can pay the same price either. And if you have a majority of communities in DC. That are communities of color, it takes them 2 hours to get to the nearest hospital through transit. And so clearly, there's an inequity socially, economically, and our transportation system is deeply interconnected with that. And so by providing free transportation to folks, that is a focus. Now, what's happened is we had a great vision. Things were great for a few years, and now that it was decriminalized, there still was the fare that people needed to pay. And so now there's been increased enforcement because they still want folks to pay. There's increased enforcement, increased gate entry to where folks are now being reprimanded for the fact that they cannot pay, although it is decriminalized. So there's still, I think, a lot of work to be done around how we address fines and fees in transportation. Another one, back in the day when I first got into this work, I was like, yes, speed cameras. Speed cameras. We need speed cameras. Because I was like, yes, safety. I was in a bad car crash, and I want people to be safe. And so I was a lobbyist for speed cameras for many years as a young person.
Now I look back and I'm like, wow, you look at Chicago, you look at Atlanta, you look at DC. And how pervasive these speed cameras are in communities, particularly people of color. And we're being surveilled through these speed cameras in the name of safety, in the quote, unquote name of safety. And so when you look at equity, it's a little bit deeper than saying, okay, let's make sure the speed cameras are in every community, because that's not equity when they're using those speed cameras to target communities of color as well.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Thank you. I'm saying thank you because you just showed so much vulnerability by saying, look, this is what I was advocating for, and look at some of the unintended consequences that came from that. And too many times I've worked with communities, clients, young leaders all over. One of the biggest things, there's multiple things, right? But one of the biggest things I get is that people have a fear to start this work because they haven't figured it out yet. They're still trying to get it right. And it's like, you can't get it right if we don't try.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: And for you, especially in that second example, that living expertise. As you stated, I actually was impacted by an actual accident.
I was in a coma for three months. So, yes, I very much was advocating for speed cameras because I do believe in safety. I am not also saying, then use that to exploit and harm communities of color, which also then happens when we have, to be honest folks in decision making positions that can even take the greatest ideas and find a way to gain a greater profit, further their own agenda. And sometimes you're sitting there looking like.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: That ain't what I hold up, wait a minute.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: That's not what I said. No, but that doesn't mean the work stops. You're still in mobility, justice work. You now are leading a moving organization to still do that work. So, yes, it was something you started in the very beginning, but it wasn't like you stopped, you understand?
[00:35:04] Speaker B: It was a journey 100%.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: And I think we need to share more of that publicly with each other, saying, this is what I tried, and here's where I went, oh, maybe we need to go back and change that. But that's still like, in some cases, those actual cameras were probably saving lives.
And there is a balance.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: There is a balance.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: And I do think we talk about equity as if it's either or, which I want to name either or. Thinking is a white supremacy tenant, people.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: And and a balance of it. All right.
[00:35:45] Speaker B: Yes. So true. Yeah. Everything does not have to be either or. And in fact, it should not be. And that's one of the values of this work that I appreciate so much, is to be able to grapple and have conversations and to think through what can we reimagine in this work and what's not working? And what can work?
[00:36:06] Speaker A: So we're getting towards the end of the conversation, and what I've loved about this is how you just keep pulling to my question. Like, you just flow it so well.
Just like you said, we have to reimagine, that's why I named this podcast. What? I named it.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: I think we forget that because we've never had an equitable society. Because we haven't had a collectively liberatory society. Right. That it is, in a sense, going to need imagination. It's going to need redesigning, and we actively can play a role in that. Right.
So let's go to the imagination part. I like to do this part because you ever heard of saying you got to see it to believe it?
[00:36:50] Speaker B: Yes, I grew up hearing that.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Look, you know that's that's a cultural thing.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: But I will also name that when we talk about equity, a lot of us, because we're so deep trying to redesign that it's hard for us to imagine what the outcome is. Right? It's hard to see it. We believe it.
But sometimes we ask the question on what am I believing? Like, am I believing for more training? Like, am I believing for or am I believing beyond that? Right? So let's go to the imagination part to kind of start to see what is Jacob's Equitable inclusive world, right? So first, let's start with your sector. Imagine you could wave a magic wand. You have no limitations, you have no boundaries, right? You have no restrictions. What is one way you would transform your sectors to be more inclusive?
[00:37:48] Speaker B: And Equitable inclusive is just putting my people at the forefront of the decision making process, the different identities that hold at the forefront of the process in mobility justice. I think that if we can get to a point where community members are actually planning what they see and planning what their community looks like, that being a I don't want to say construct, if that's the correct word, but it being something that is very concrete, that this is normal for us to be doing. Like humans actually being a part of designing a very inclusive community, designing what their community looks like. And that is from built environment. I'd say from built environment first. Yeah, I think I go back to young people. I really believe that young people start off with that imagination and have that imagination to dream. And so I'd want them to be at the forefront of what their built environment looks like. I will say that that question is extremely powerful and will make me think for a very long time, because I agree with you. You get so wrapped up in redesigning and breaking down things and just, like, reinvigorating what you see an opportunity to really take a step back and be like, okay, what does it actually look like? And what does this actually look like many years from now when everything has the opportunity to actually be and I truly will say from a perspective of being black and queer and disabled, I want a journey where criminalization, there's no need for that. Specifically regarding mobility. Because if we can build environments and spaces where people have the ability to move freely and have safe environments, then we wouldn't need to be criminalizing someone in the way that we're criminalizing because we have the systems in place. But right now, we're really relying to criminalize folks for lack of access to transit, lack of access to sidewalks. And I think that needs to change from a transportation safety perspective.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you for that. And you speak a lot around the intersection also of industries.
Like, you were just talking about decriminalization, right? We know how the criminal justice system also have deep, deep, deep exploitation, disparities, the list goes on and on. You talked about economics a bit earlier, and so when you look at other sectors beyond and granted, it could very much intersect with mobility, justice work, transportation work, right. Urban planning. But what other sectors do you believe need to be reimagined and redesigned?
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think, of course, the criminal justice system I don't even want to say criminal justice. The carceral system maybe is probably a better word to say that.
Yeah. So the carceral system for sure. And I don't necessarily know, I'm just going to say it. Maybe it's the food industry or the food.
[00:41:03] Speaker A: Needing more food, sovereignty, dressing parties and all that.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: I think it's just so deeply ingrained where I go to the grocery store and I'm like, why am I sitting here beyond the price, beyond me getting annoyed at the price? Why am I sitting here having to be a consumer in this way with food and really dealing with the inequities that people face? Having to go to the grocery store and not being able to have the soil that they deserve in their community to grow, not having the resources, not having the lifestyle that they deserve to be able to grow their own food and reap the benefits of that? And of course, that ties directly into mobility justice as well.
[00:41:46] Speaker A: Well, first of all, I think everything ties to especially going back to your definition in the beginning, everything intersects with mobility justice. And I hope the listeners of this conversation see that intersection and start to be more mindful of how mobility impacts them, their communities, their employees, their families, right? And how can we be greater advocates of mobility justice and honestly join you in that fight and in that movement?
So with that, I just want to thank you for opening our eyes and hopefully kind of inspiring a good amount of us to join you in this work of really designing a world and imagining a world that is centering mobility justice. Young leaders, people of color, queer individuals, folks that are proximate and also being mindful that built environment. There's power in the people that are building these spaces and not passively. Just walking by a building, walking by a park and really questioning who was able to decide to build that up and how do I get more involved and how do I also decenter the power structure so we can all be more involved with that decision making? Thank you for that and I appreciate you taking the time and I'm excited to continue to see what you do, Jacob. So thank you for joining us today.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Antoinette.
